Legacy Tournaments

[wajiman]

hy guys

this is my first post on your forums, great products and a big thanks for you lite mods. so after installing vBArcade lite on my local host, i saw a feature to be missing that i think is very important. that is to include torunament ladders for a prticular game score etc. a particular no.of members can be selected on the basis of first come, first serve to participate in competition and prizes could be set like rep points, awards and trophies etc.. so what do you guys say about it?

 

[xandyx]

I get what you mean, and I presume this is why most ignore the challenges if they are sent by vbulletin notifications. That is my exact point and why I don't use the notifications for the game challenges...
The sidebar is there anyway and it doesn't affect your viewing any more than the live feeds etc.

as all the info you need appears in the footer bar..You should try it..

I won't be trying vbnotifications...yet, I'm saving for the fantastic looking vBSignatures & vBAvatars, I will make good use of them

Also with the chatbar it may not be great looking.

I think both suggestions gives Darkwaltz4 something to look into

 

[Darkwaltz4]

Actually, those are good ideas. I was hoping to get away from the private messages if possible

I was going to have a page of tournaments listed by ones you are active in, pending in, open, active, finished in, finished

the notifications box can tell you how many you are active (your tier is in play) or pending (added to a tournament but not confirmed) that takes you to the page.

i can perhaps add an option to the forum block for open tournaments (need players) that also takes you to that page. i like it!

 

[skol]

the notifications box can tell you how many you are active (your tier is in play) or pending (added to a tournament but not confirmed) that takes you to the page.

That for myself and my members would be the ultimate one..To make the vbarcade tournaments script the best, you have too have some form of direct communication,rather than going back to the forum or looking elsewhere for the answers. A simple click straight to the page and away they go.

 

[Darkwaltz4]

I've been designing more solid plans on how tournaments will work. Please everyone give feedback on each section below

1) I've decided that the tournament page should actually be a tab on the game page, like the scores tab. This way you have the tree right in plain sight as you play, so you know what to beat. plus, it'll reload the tree after you finish a game to see where you stand, and make it really easy to do extra plays if you have multiple attempts left. If you are a bystander, you can play the game like normal, and see how you would have done compared to it. if you are viewing a game outside of a tournament, the tab will let you issue a one-tier tournament/challenge to someone. What do you think of this?

2) I am thinking of making tournament tiers work on first-won-first-paired. So, if you win in your tier, you move on to the next one, and the next person to move on to your tier will be paired with you - even if that person wasnt in the bracket below you in the previous tier. In fact, this could lead to some players competing several tiers down from where the tournament as a whole has progressed. This is much easier to code, and plus lets players who currently have limited time to play the arcade get on with it while they are still in it, without having to wait for stragglers (who might be disqualified in due time). The important thing is that the ultimate winner is still only decided once all players have had their fair shake at it, just not at the same pace. What do you think of this?

3) I've also come up with some mockups which I would like feedback on to help select the one to go with. Note that titles are tentative, usernames and scores are fake, and pretend there are cool avatars and stylization thrown in

No spacing -


Spacing -


Without spacing, the overall tree is shorter but might be harder to figure out who was competing with who (again, might not correspond directly to previous tier order). With spacing of course is more obvious, but contribute to it getting really tall, especially because i think vbarcade can support basically unlimited tiers. What do you think of this?

4) Any other feedback on that design? Also, still time to make requests on this feature in general.

 

[CharlieDelta]

First off I think the tab idea is stellar! It is perfect.
I can't decide on #3. The spacing at fist looks like the obvious choice I am just worried that with big tournaments the page will be too long. Hard to decide but if I had to choose I would go with spacing.
#2 I think is a great idea to go with first won, first paired because the biggest hang up we face is waiting on people to show up and play their game. The whole tournament grinds to a stand still for one person.

Will we have the option to replace players if they don't ever show?

 

[Freekoid]

#1 : Excellent idea adding it to the game block/tab itself.
#2 : Also agree, I've never seen a three person tourney anywhere always evens! Would the math be too difficult? A plays B and C and B plays C, The cumulative scores added together, highest plays the second highest for outright winner!
#3 : I'm going to plum for 'Spacing' although the first one isnt hard to comprehend.

+ : Tournaments in play block added to main arcade page and forum
+ : If you don't have a featured game in that block what about, forgive my wording 'Next week's Big Cash Tourney' ; something like that - The game with the prize fund, then maybe a + to signup along with a countdown feature. Maybe hover to see who has signed up and how many places are remaining, and a practice button for play.

Can't think of anything else at the mo..

 

[Darkwaltz4]

what would a countdown be counting towards exactly?

 

[Freekoid]

what would a countdown be counting towards exactly?

To the tournament. I'm thinking if you were to offer a huge prize or mega points then the countdown to the big event would look good! Perhaps not.

I'm trying to get ideas bounced around for vbarcade tourneys to be the best.

What about a triple tourney? 8 players (first game) 4 winners play (second game) final two go head to head for (final game)

 

[skol]

1) I've decided that the tournament page should actually be a tab on the game page, like the scores tab. This way you have the tree right in plain sight as you play, so you know what to beat. plus, it'll reload the tree after you finish a game to see where you stand, and make it really easy to do extra plays if you have multiple attempts left. If you are a bystander, you can play the game like normal, and see how you would have done compared to it. if you are viewing a game outside of a tournament, the tab will let you issue a one-tier tournament/challenge to someone. What do you think of this?

Yes without a doubt the way to go..

2) I am thinking of making tournament tiers work on first-won-first-paired. So, if you win in your tier, you move on to the next one, and the next person to move on to your tier will be paired with you - even if that person wasnt in the bracket below you in the previous tier. In fact, this could lead to some players competing several tiers down from where the tournament as a whole has progressed. This is much easier to code, and plus lets players who currently have limited time to play the arcade get on with it while they are still in it, without having to wait for stragglers (who might be disqualified in due time). The important thing is that the ultimate winner is still only decided once all players have had their fair shake at it, just not at the same pace. What do you think of this?

Apologise's but I'm just trying to get my head round this one..So am I right in saying that we wouldn't have to predefine how many players when setting a tourney up? I think the idea of first-won-first-paired is a brilliant one..Not knowing possibly who you will play next is a gem.

I still think stragglers would cause problems later on in the tourney's.And the main thing is to get the tourneys running without indurance and get them over with asap,without players having to wait.I'm not sure..Maybe Freekoid's Idea of a countdown could be applied to each tier/round and auto disqualify if they haven't played before the timer runs out.

Without spacing, the overall tree is shorter but might be harder to figure out who was competing with who (again, might not correspond directly to previous tier order). With spacing of course is more obvious, but contribute to it getting really tall, especially because i think vbarcade can support basically unlimited tiers. What do you think of this?

I'd prefer the spacing..



Yeah I'd like to see Round Robin tourneys,that would be good..

 

[xandyx]

i can perhaps add an option to the forum block for open tournaments (need players) that also takes you to that page. i like it!

A must for me

I think your idea looks fine and yes a tab is great and spacing a must...but....

like I said earlier, I found, when using the tournament system in v3 PM's were ignored or we would wait a few days before the next leg was able to continue because a member was not available, everything just seemed to drag on and tournaments would have to be halted, it just made everything so messy, boring and the most enthusiastic members just stopped signing up to them.

Although I hope I'm not offending, but your idea is very similar to the v3 and I'm just worried that it would end up the same way.
Myself I would have liked something simple, as I pointed out earlier.

I would have liked to have seen a game set in Admin just like the featured game ~ not one for members to sign up to before there could be a tournament.
The timer ~ I use 7 days ~ is the length before the end of the challenge. Members that want to play will and they do, unlike when there was a tournament that waited for players before it could continue.
If their score is beaten they go back again to get back to the top ~ Sunday night there is a 'Mad Frenzy' to get the top score, it great fun.
At the end of the challenge a points(coins) prize for the winner!

I understand all the work you've done and like I said I hope I haven't offended, I just know that I've had this system and it didn't work {not to say that it won't for others}

I bought your mod for the reason of the integration of the jackpot system alone, and I would really like to see you incorporate that into any challenge/tournament system you finish up with.

Keep up the good work....I know you can't please everyone, I'm just one of those awkward ones

 

[skol]

Question? Are we talking a full tournament system or just a tiers and ladders mod.This request thread might be confusing for some.As I don't see a clear definition of what the vbarcade tournament script will be..The thread starter seemed to be talking about a tournaments and ladders mod.And with respect DW you seem to be talking the same.

Just a little clarification please,for an old boy...

 

[Darkwaltz4]

Tab with spacing, cool I also think that tournament-only notification vs pm is better (or at least equal) in terms of getting people's attentions to tournaments they are part of.
Im still not sure what is being counted down TO (and i dont mean "the tournament") because tournaments dont have expiration dates when they are pending. they cannot start with less than the required amount of people, and ending them early isnt fair, but admin can do it manually if its really annoying. Once a tournament has started, you cant join it. I will be integrating the prices+jackpot addon with this as well, but otherwise by itself tournaments wont give anything for winning but stats.

If you wanted open-ended "tournaments" that happen on a weekly basis or whatever, vbarcade already contains the archived scores feature and a scheduled task you can enable to shift scores to archived on set time periods. So that keeps the leaderboard fresh.

Single-elimination tournament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia anything else becomes nightmarish to manage and highly vulnerable to no-shows. this way the damage can be localized and removed asap.
Round robin style would definitely take too long in practice, though i know it would be neat in a perfect world.

First-won-first-paired does NOT mean that tournaments are open ended nor have more than 2 people per match. I'm saying that a match is active as soon as two people have qualified into that round, and are matched according to the time they qualified, not their initial position. Lets look at these hypothetical users A-H

Round 1
----------
A v B(1)
C v D(4)
E(2) v F
G v H(3)

the users with (#) won their match against the other guy, and that number is the chronological time that they won their match (so 1 was done at 9am, 2 was done at 10am, 3 at 2pm, 4 at 8pm)

Normally, because of position, you would expect this..

Round 2
---------
B v D
E v H

However, that requires that every person in round 1 is finished. and that wastes time if someone never shows up for their match.
My first-won-first-paired method works such that instead, round 2 looks like

Round 2
---------
B v E
H v D

Which is based on the time that they finished. In fact BvE can start playing Round 2 even before GvH and CvD are finished Round 1. The point is that if someone is going to not show up, it only holds up the match, and not the whole round

While on the topic, for tournaments to begin, it must have the full roster of people confirmed for the number of rounds set for the tournament. if theres enough people but not all confirmed, admin can jump-start the whole thing, and if people dont show up, they get disqualified. Theres a configurable time limit (id say default of 12 hours) for you to get your attempts in, or whatever you had gets locked (or you can end early if you are happy with an result). if you didnt show up, you dont advance. if both people in a match dont show up, then the first person to enter that match moves on, where theyll probably time out there too. Cant have lopsided tournaments Admin can replace people while the tournament is still pending (theres no auto-delete for pending tournaments) but after it is started, the tournament is guaranteed to be over in timelimit * rounds. Fast and active players can do all their games at once as much as they qualify for against each other, and then can leave to get on with their life while the rest catch up, which encourages being fast and active.

its really not as complicated once you get used to it, and it should cut down on delays in tournaments. please keep the ideas flowing!

Here are some admin screenshots of what I've got so far that should hopefully illustrate what I am doing.



(unlimited rounds are actually supported, but that might get out of hand, so its easily extendable if demand happens)


(once enough users are there, you cant invite anymore without removing some. also, you can jump-start the tournament right away at this point even if not everyone has confirmed)


(1 and 6 paired up first because they confirmed first. Test4 has also moved onto Round 2 and will play the next person who also does so, even while 4 other people are in Round 1. Statuses are very helpful)

 

[xandyx]

First of all, now we are starting to get a fuller picture I'm quite excited!
I'm pleased you are going with the spaced format, it will look a lot neater and readable.

Loose the the timer idea, I've just confused matters and I will put it as a add-on request...its a completely different idea that I use instead of the tournament.
I like the way that a tournament can start immediately once an opponent has been matched, and if I'm reading correctly I can disqualify any opponent that doesn't start their game but the tournament continues...I like it! (But can you just clarify if a replacement could not be found for a no show ~ the opponent waiting will win that round automatically? thus enabling him to continue within the tournament)

Points/Prizes for the winner Yeah!!
I hope you are going to give us a sidebar block, current tournaments and the game/player status would be cool! and if that included something to say spaces available and prize amount that would be fantastic!


You are doing a Brilliant job! I'm not going to go on just incase I confuse matters again

 

[Darkwaltz4]

xandyx - keep your feedback coming

Each match has a time limit which is set globally (my default recommendation will be 12 hrs) and you auto-forfeit your match if you don't show up in time. if both players forfeit in a match, the first person who got into the match will advance, and the other will be defeated. You can forfeit manually if you want. You cannot replace users in an active tournament, but while it is still pending.

I am considering having a 0-round option operate as a single-series round-robin. Matches work same as the bracket style, with no ties. Person who won the most wins.
Also, because that allows for unlimited number of players, including odd, if you set the timestamp for the tournament into the future, it could count down to it, and on that date start the tournament with whoever has confirmed at that point. otherwise, admin has to begin the tournament manually. let me know what you guys think of this.

 

[Freekoid]

I am considering having a 0-round option operate as a single-series round-robin. Matches work same as the bracket style, with no ties. Person who won the most wins.
Also, because that allows for unlimited number of players, including odd, if you set the timestamp for the tournament into the future, it could count down to it, and on that date start the tournament with whoever has confirmed at that point. otherwise, admin has to begin the tournament manually. let me know what you guys think of this.

I think you should remove the italics from the word 'considering' this would be awesome, no other arcade has ever done such to my knowledge.

I was confused when I looked up round robin via wiki it looked like you have opposing teams battling out until one successor?!

Is my triple game play idea a no-go? 3 different games 1 tourney?

 

[skol]

This is looking awesome..

I am considering having a 0-round option operate as a single-series round-robin. Matches work same as the bracket style, with no ties. Person who won the most wins.

Yes please consider it..

 

[Darkwaltz4]

I think you should remove the italics from the word 'considering' this would be awesome, no other arcade has ever done such to my knowledge.

I am still figuring out how it will work, and im not entirely certain it fits the model i am going for yet.

I was confused when I looked up round robin via wiki it looked like you have opposing teams battling out until one successor?!

No teams, because they would be arbitrary and temporary. Everyone is against everyone else exactly once. At the end, the person who won the most is the winner. In case of tie, best score or something. I dont want ties
Also, there wont be any playoffs because that would mean you are playing against someone you already won/lost against at that point, so it is not worth it, and would require the whole round to be finished, instead of being able to use my first-won-first-paired idea For the same reason, i cant match you up against people who have similar records as you at that point, and i think that will suffice. the idea is to get the best player out as quickly as possible (because of no-shows), and round-robin allows for: the countdown aspect, arbitrary participants (including odd), and some people's complaints about having one bad game ruining your chances (though having a sufficient Attempts setting would also help).

Is my triple game play idea a no-go? 3 different games 1 tourney?

Do you mean like a triathalon type of thing? Or rounds where the best of 3 people in a match moves on?
Those are actually cool ideas, but too much to do for the first iteration of the tournament feature keep your ideas coming!

 

[xandyx]

Come On Darkwaltz4 Are You Mad!!

You made me nearly wet my pants when I saw your post...

I am considering having a 0-round option operate as a single-series round-robin. Matches work same as the bracket style, with no ties. Person who won the most wins.

You Tantalise us with a statement like that and you add that you are going to consider it?
VbArcade will be the only mod to even come close to a round robin, especially the way you think you can implement it.

I and the rest of us can't have any excuses...If you didn't think you could do it you wouldn't of mentioned it, so less of the modesty and get doing what no other can compete with, and make alot of us gamers very very happy!

I need a lay down this is too much...

 

[skol]

First-won-first-paired is based upon the time the game is played.It's an ingenious idea.As that would mean say someone winning the leg at 6-00am would be paired with another person winning another leg nearest to that time the previous leg was won at..

Only downfall I can see on that is "my default recommendation will be 12 hrs".How would that work if members have set on registration a different timezone or they didn't select one.Will that play a part in the 12 hour window?

 

[Darkwaltz4]

Thats why my default recommendation is 12 hours. If someone were to go to sleep or work immediately, still a couple hours in there no matter when they did it, relative to starting timezone, while being short enough to not be too bad.
Its just a default setting; you can change it to whatever you want.