#1
The lawsuit is finally over: Lawsuits Over, Next..! | XenForo Community

Do you guys have any plans to extend your awesome mods to XenForo again?

I think if you guys were to convert few of your "popular" mods over, I think it would be a great reception to the mod community over there.

I'd like to hear from the owners and staff members about this. :)
 

Decado

Owner
Customer
#2
We'll wait and see how the software and community develops first - what put us off last time wasn't the lawsuit, it was the horrible attitude of a proportion of the community over there :(

We would have to essentially build the paid markets mod for xF up from scratch and it's hard to push yourself to work at a loss for several months to build an uncertain market, which is what we would have to commit to.

If the community there was a friendly one that appreciated and encouraged the work it would be one thing, but we had a different experience. People were actively looking for reasons to complain and insult us, there was an attitude of "your mods/pricing/copyright should work the way we say so, or we're going to attack you".

TL;DR We lost money doing it last time and the community was so unfriendly and abrasive that we have no desire to release our work to those people. We might re-examine xF down the road if the community changes or the profitability equation is different, but for now we have no plans.
 
#3
We'll wait and see how the software and community develops first - what put us off last time wasn't the lawsuit, it was the horrible attitude of a proportion of the community over there :(

We would have to essentially build the paid markets mod for xF up from scratch and it's hard to push yourself to work at a loss for several months to build an uncertain market, which is what we would have to commit to.

If the community there was a friendly one that appreciated and encouraged the work it would be one thing, but we had a different experience. People were actively looking for reasons to complain and insult us, there was an attitude of "your mods/pricing/copyright should work the way we say so, or we're going to attack you".

TL;DR We lost money doing it last time and the community was so unfriendly and abrasive that we have no desire to release our work to those people. We might re-examine xF down the road if the community changes or the profitability equation is different, but for now we have no plans.
Hi Decado, thank you for the detailed post.
At one point I was not so crazy about the copyright and all the footer information, but that's in the past, I love what you guys have done so far, also I was privileged over the past year or so to work with you guys on various beta releases.
I like how much feedback you guys take from users, and how good your support has been also.
I am ready to leave vBulletin for XenForo because I feel that XenForo would offer a better solution for my community vs staying with vBulletin.

Now that the lawsuit is over, I think the attitude of people will greatly be changed, and I think it would welcome more premium developers in their community.

I've invested a lot of money in DragonByte Tech plugins, I'd hate to lose them all, I just wish someday these mods would get ported over, but of course If they don't sell well then it would not make sense as a company to switch over, I'd think releasing some of your most popular plugins (instead of vBSignature/avatar) would also help because I doubt anyone over XenForo can match the quality of your plugins.

I am at this point not sure what the feature will hold for vBulletin 5, the system is nice, but it lacks so many basic features that my community needs that it would not make sense to even consider vB5 ready for what I really need it for for at least another 3-4 years to say the minimum based on how fast vB's development has been moving for the last few years.

Oh well, I am done ranting hehe. :)
 
#5
What is it that XenForo has that you don't have in vB4.2
Well for starters I love the UI, it's very intuitive, the notification system is light years better than what vBulletin uses.

Also the product feels much quicker than vBulletin.
I like the how simple it feels created and replying to a thread compared to vBulletin.
The editor feels neater too compared to what vBulletin 4.2 uses.

The jQuery usercard is very nice also, PM'ing users make it a breeze.

With that said, most of my users are on the fence about this, we are getting a 60/40 reaction in favor of vBulletin, but that's because we only been using vBulletin since 2004.

I feel that the change up with draw more registration to the website, will promote more posting habits and so on..
 
#6
Well for starters I love the UI, it's very intuitive, the notification system is light years better than what vBulletin uses.

Also the product feels much quicker than vBulletin.
I like the how simple it feels created and replying to a thread compared to vBulletin.
This is how I feel exactly. I am ready to move Threads: 195,013, Posts: 1,548,767, Members: 728,137 from vb to xf.

I hope in the next 6 months, things really go well for xf, the market share increases, and the mod community thrives and then I hope dbtech will come on over and join us :)

Although I will miss all the great plugins from dbtech, I feel my board needs this fresh change more than anything.
 

Decado

Owner
Customer
#8
The market over at IPS isn't strong enough to be honest.

The absolute best selling products there of all time, on the marketplace that's part of their site, only get 5-600 sales, and tend to sell for $15-$35. Only 4 mods have ever sold more than 400 copies, despite the super low price points.

For perspective, our best selling mod (out of about 60) has made more money than their best selling mod (out of about 1800). That's despite it being sold on the official IPB site, and our mods being available only from DBTech.

I looked into IPS way wayyyy back when and decided the modding scene over there just wasn't as big as at vB - people who want to mod their forum buy vBulletin instead, basically.

TL;DR No plans to go into IPS just now, the number of people there who will actually buy mods is still too small.
 
Last edited:

Decado

Owner
Customer
#9
Found something amusing that pretty much sums up the attitude and type of people who make up the xF modding community:

Here is a guy taking exception to us pointing out coding for xF is a little more cumbersome than for vB5 by calling us amateurs:

Xenforo codebase less plugin-friendly | XenForo Community

And this is the same guy who called US amateurs running about 6 months over on a 2 month project he got paid $2k for:

Crowd fund MercDesign Media Gallery | XenForo Community

That guy is what the xF crowd considers a "professional". Guys like him who promise the world and don't deliver are what people compare our pricing strategies, copyright locations etc to. Basically we're expected to do it the same way as the guys who can't make any money or we have to deal with insults. Hell even when we're not around we're being insulted apparently! :p

I spent today looking around the xF community in depth to see if it HAD changed since we last gave it a shot. Sadly it has not.
 
#10
Found something amusing that pretty much sums up the attitude and type of people who make up the xF modding community:

Here is a guy taking exception to us pointing out coding for xF is a little more cumbersome than for vB5 by calling us amateurs:

Xenforo codebase less plugin-friendly | XenForo Community

And this is the same guy who called US amateurs running about 6 months over on a 2 month project he got paid $2k for:

Crowd fund MercDesign Media Gallery | XenForo Community

That guy is what the xF crowd considers a "professional". Guys like him who promise the world and don't deliver are what people compare our pricing strategies, copyright locations etc to. Basically we're expected to do it the same way as the guys who can't make any money or we have to deal with insults. Hell even when we're not around we're being insulted apparently! :p

I spent today looking around the xF community in depth to see if it HAD changed since we last gave it a shot. Sadly it has not.
The other day I was comparing his donation plugin with yours ...the same guy that was trolling with you guys on the above post made the following post yesterday:
Donation Manager [Paid] | Page 27 | XenForo Community

This is the post it truly got me like, wow this guy is cocky.

I have looked at many donation plugins in various areas and have yet to see one that has been done better than this. The fact the ones you talk about are on vBulletin make me highly doubt they compare in the slightest. I make professional add-ons and this is one of them
 
#13
Found something amusing that pretty much sums up the attitude and type of people who make up the xF modding community:

Here is a guy taking exception to us pointing out coding for xF is a little more cumbersome than for vB5 by calling us amateurs:

Xenforo codebase less plugin-friendly | XenForo Community

And this is the same guy who called US amateurs running about 6 months over on a 2 month project he got paid $2k for:

Crowd fund MercDesign Media Gallery | XenForo Community

That guy is what the xF crowd considers a "professional". Guys like him who promise the world and don't deliver are what people compare our pricing strategies, copyright locations etc to. Basically we're expected to do it the same way as the guys who can't make any money or we have to deal with insults. Hell even when we're not around we're being insulted apparently! :p

I spent today looking around the xF community in depth to see if it HAD changed since we last gave it a shot. Sadly it has not.
Decado, looks like the guy that was calling you guys out....Price Increases and Small Update | Mercenary Design

Things aren't going too well on the other side of the grass...

Especially when he is considering changing branding/or someone co-owning things with him maybe.

Again, all of this really makes me appreciate how much work Dbtech does for their users and the continuation in developing their products further.
 

Decado

Owner
Customer
#14
Decado, looks like the guy that was calling you guys out....Price Increases and Small Update | Mercenary Design

Things aren't going too well on the other side of the grass...

Especially when he is considering changing branding/or someone co-owning things with him maybe.

Again, all of this really makes me appreciate how much work Dbtech does for their users and the continuation in developing their products further.
Colour me entirely unsurprised by this. As i've said a few time, XF has huge problems in it's community that make it extremely developer-unfriendly and they're killing their own modding scene with it.

Guys who criticize us, even on vB, tend to follow the same pattern. Come along, put out some cheap mods, claim we're amateurs/charge too much, vanish a few months later when they realise they're losing money and don't have the resources or professionalism to figure out a route to profitability.

Rinse and repeat.

The sad thing is every time they do it, they devalue the market and make it harder for actual professionals to do their jobs and make a profit. People don't want to pay $60 for something when they paid some other guy claiming he was a professional $30 and then got burned.
 
#15
I've actually decided to switch over to Xenforo cause I can't stand the state of vbulletin right now and they way they've been treating their product and their customers. >:[ Their prices keep getting higher and higher, but the support and the state of their products have become a disaster.

For one, I'd LOVE if you guys did a port of your biggest mods. And I think all loyal DBTech customers that end up using other forum solutions would appreciate it too. I don't think you should care one lick about the few douchenozzles out in the modding community on xenforo (or vbulletin for that matter) who want to whine, complain or criticize. Those people are almost always idiots with unrealistic expectations and wouldn't likely purchase products anyway. Those sort of people always want things for free and don't consider needs of the majority.

I know I have bought your stuff and stick with your mods cause you cause have been respectful and considerate to your customers, while always making an effort to put out well rounded mods and fix problems when they pop up. You are a company that I trust and that's always a top priority for me! Being able to take you with me to another system would be great, and I hate the fact that might be impossible just cause there's a few very loud rude people out there. D:
 
#16
I just recently purchased Xenforo just in case vBulletin 5 doesn't meet up to my expectations and as it is now there is nothing visually significant with VB5 that makes me feel any different then using VB 4.2...

Xenforo isn't as big as I thought it would have been giving all the aahs and oohs from the people that left vBulletin... For one their plugin community doesn't seem like it had all the wonderful charm it did in the beginning...

The people there are generally the same people from then the vBulletin communities so to me it's just the board that is different not the people...

I do like the Xenforo admin panel a lot better then the vbulletin one as I seriously hate the scrolling of program settings would rather have it in one central location...

Even owning almost every mod made by Dragonbyte has it woes both on the left side of the admin panel and the settings list... But that is the vBulletin design... I had asked them to make it more ajax friendly so we could make it so we could edit the admin panel to make it easier to adjust settings by groups and blocks but I guess the VB team didn't want to use my idea...

If Dragonbyte went and made everything on Xenforo I cannot guarantee I would want to re-purchase everything again... Even at a discount it would be quite costly... I am sure over time I would but would take me awhile to get them all... I did however purchase Robbo's Donation Manager last year when I purchased the Xenforo... He was probably the only guy making a decent donations manager that reminded me of the one from Dragonbyte...

Either way vBulletin 5 isn't visually different admin and forum wise unless I am missing something... I am not bashing them as I did purchase it! I think their install needs a ton of work... It should never be a hassle to install a bulletin board and that I am sure is killing their sales big time! People might not be talking to them in their forums but if you do a search it's a huge headache for people!

I think the bad blood between vBulletin and Xenforo just confuses customers but most will choose vBulletin but if they cannot install it they will turn away (I know I am preaching to the choir).. I did notice in my own opinion when all this Xenforo stuff started the vBulletin modding community did drop off a whole lot but seems vbulletin.org has been slowly picking back up recently...

Just a word to the wise when people talk trash about someone elses work it is usually a few things like they are not familiar or they are harvesting a fear of some kind... To me Dragonbyte does take over a lot of defunct mods and ideas that never got attended too.. I do not see any issues buying everything Dragonbyte but I am sure a lot of people moving up in the world trying to do the same as Dragonbyte would get a little uptight so many things are already developed... My only beef if Robbo thought something wasn't right about a Dragonbyte product why not help each other out but then he has his business to worry about so maybe that is why he feels the way he feels?

Anyways I am not sure about moving my site over the xenforo just yet...
 
#17
I just recently purchased Xenforo just in case vBulletin 5 doesn't meet up to my expectations and as it is now there is nothing visually significant with VB5 that makes me feel any different then using VB 4.2...

Xenforo isn't as big as I thought it would have been giving all the aahs and oohs from the people that left vBulletin... For one their plugin community doesn't seem like it had all the wonderful charm it did in the beginning...

The people there are generally the same people from then the vBulletin communities so to me it's just the board that is different not the people...

I do like the Xenforo admin panel a lot better then the vbulletin one as I seriously hate the scrolling of program settings would rather have it in one central location...

Even owning almost every mod made by Dragonbyte has it woes both on the left side of the admin panel and the settings list... But that is the vBulletin design... I had asked them to make it more ajax friendly so we could make it so we could edit the admin panel to make it easier to adjust settings by groups and blocks but I guess the VB team didn't want to use my idea...

If Dragonbyte went and made everything on Xenforo I cannot guarantee I would want to re-purchase everything again... Even at a discount it would be quite costly... I am sure over time I would but would take me awhile to get them all... I did however purchase Robbo's Donation Manager last year when I purchased the Xenforo... He was probably the only guy making a decent donations manager that reminded me of the one from Dragonbyte...

Either way vBulletin 5 isn't visually different admin and forum wise unless I am missing something... I am not bashing them as I did purchase it! I think their install needs a ton of work... It should never be a hassle to install a bulletin board and that I am sure is killing their sales big time! People might not be talking to them in their forums but if you do a search it's a huge headache for people!

I think the bad blood between vBulletin and Xenforo just confuses customers but most will choose vBulletin but if they cannot install it they will turn away (I know I am preaching to the choir).. I did notice in my own opinion when all this Xenforo stuff started the vBulletin modding community did drop off a whole lot but seems vbulletin.org has been slowly picking back up recently...

Just a word to the wise when people talk trash about someone elses work it is usually a few things like they are not familiar or they are harvesting a fear of some kind... To me Dragonbyte does take over a lot of defunct mods and ideas that never got attended too.. I do not see any issues buying everything Dragonbyte but I am sure a lot of people moving up in the world trying to do the same as Dragonbyte would get a little uptight so many things are already developed... My only beef if Robbo thought something wasn't right about a Dragonbyte product why not help each other out but then he has his business to worry about so maybe that is why he feels the way he feels?

Anyways I am not sure about moving my site over the xenforo just yet...
I agree with most of this. But I disagree, since the lawsuit was over the XenForo plugin community got a huge boost, it's getting bigger by the day, the product is slowly becoming really nice, I am really happy how things are turning out.

I personally think Robbo needs to take a step back and relax, and maybe join the dbtech team and help port some of the products over to XF. :)

I am ready to make the switch, I haven't been happy with vB5 and the future doesn't look too bright, and people are moving on to XF.
Hopefully DBtech may consider doing things with XF again because I think the community is slowly changing and the attitude is getting better there.

If Dbtech would switch, I'd re-buy the core plugins in a heart beat because I'd rather do business with 1 company than multiple companies.
Plus I can get support in one place than having to go to multiple places.
 
#18
So you had an ordeal with a couple bad eggs and the xenForo community is awful?

Here is what BamaStangGuy (a xenForo community member and long time vBulletin user) had to say about that guy Robbo.

User Robbo Review (MercenaryDesign) | XenForo Community

People, customers and modders, are leaving vBulletin in droves. I would encourage you guys not to get left behind. You do good work and releasing a popular mod over there would be a good investment I'm sure. You just have to start with the areas that are lacking.
 

Belazor

Staff member
Owner
Developer
Customer
#19
Disclaimer: Everything said in this post is my own personal opinion / understanding of this situation, and should not be taken as official company policy.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Brendon Meynell a moderator over @ xenForo around a year ago?

I saw, when clicking that link, that you had liked the xFAvatars resource - that very thread demonstrates exactly what Iain / Decado was referring to; the fact that people complain about our copyright footers more so than talk about the mod itself.

Then there's this person: xfShop [Deleted] | Page 2 | XenForo Community - he took every opportunity to bash us and our products in that thread, getting a bandwagon going. I understand that a part of marketing is hyping up your products, but I don't ever recall an ad for Toyota going "Ford is rubbish and stands for Fixed Or Repaired Daily, the car we're currently in the process of making is going to be much better because we listen to our customers" :p

When literally everything we did for xenForo got us more complaints in a week than we get for all our vB addons combined, what're we supposed to think?

That's not even touching on the aspects of the paid market - while I'm not even a fraction of the market analyst Iain is, it makes sense that the ease with which you can submit paid mods over there leads to people flooding the market with $5 mods. That in turn leads to a general expectation of how much addons should cost.

Think of it like the way the iOS app store works. Every hour, 15 new Angry Birds / PvZ / <whatever else is popular this week> clones appear on the app store for 99 cents / 60p.
If you then bring out something like Infinity Blade, you're going to have to fight uphill in 40ft of snow to get people to accept that you have to charge £15 for it because you owe the music guy and the artist £1k each because you wanted top notch audio and visuals to go along with your game mechanics.

Even if your game goes viral, for every sale you have 100 people complaining that it isn't costing 60p.

$5 for an addon isn't even remotely financially viable for us - while "low profit margin on each item, but volume makes up for it" makes sense if you're selling chocolate bars, it doesn't make sense if you're selling products that have to be supported. Doing that means you're costing yourself money in the long run by having to spend countless hours on support. Charging for support is a bad idea because people will expect everything to be resolved even if what they want requires a significant re-work of the product.

This is what I believe Iain meant by "we would have to build up the paid market from scratch" - we would have to single-handedly get people used to (i.e. bear the brunt of several months of insults / complaints regarding our prices with almost 0 profit) the idea of paying £20-£60 for mods.

Trust me, we haven't turned a blind eye to xenForo. Part of Iain's job is observing xenForo's market status to see if other coders like yourself are willing to do the smart thing when releasing paid xenForo addons. We have the foresight to know that even if there'd been no controversy surrounding vB4/vB5, we couldn't survive indefinitely as a one-trick pony.

That being said, I hope I've helped make it clearer why we're financially and personally very gun-shy about xenForo.
 
#20
Oh I understand your reasoning, I've been on that side of it at vBORG years ago and when I had vbmodder.com. I just disagree that it's a valid business decision. Worrying about a few cry babies doesn't lead to success. Selling quality products leads to success. Facetime is everything in sales. The longer you wait the more unknown you will be over there. But of course it's your business. I had just noticed your old threads there and was wondering what happened.

I've been out of the forum business for a few years due to health issues and came back a couple months ago to find vBulletin a mess and the community basically gone or mad. I am now moving to XenForo because it's quite clearly a superior product. From a code standpoint and a user one. Now that the lawsuit is over development is full on.

Take care
 
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